Oh my God, the jazz police are on fire. Listing a bunch of RULES that must be adhered to in order to qualify as 'jazz' is nothing short of hilarious!!
Printable View
Oh my God, the jazz police are on fire. Listing a bunch of RULES that must be adhered to in order to qualify as 'jazz' is nothing short of hilarious!!
What I find amazing is that, as the person who said that I thought Vinnie could play be-bop, I never imagined the level of response that statement produced. More importantly, I never qualified the quality with which Vinnie plays that particular genre only to say that I thought he played it quite well. Is he the best? Absolutely not. Did I say he played it as well as Tony or Elvin? Absolutely not. I only said that you could hear their influence in his playing. Did I intend to insult Jazz? Absolutely not. And I still don't think I did.
Now, I will admit that there are some valid points about the language of Jazz. However, we shouldn't forget that Jazz came about as something that was totally new and unheard-of at the time of its long creation. And it is based on a loose and varied improvisation and interplay between the players. And I would hardly think that Miles and Trane thought that their music had to fit the paramaters or "rules" spelled out above. Yes, that IS absurd.
I am in no way an "expert" on jazz or music or anything for that matter. My statement was not meant to be an edict of any level of expertise. It was merely an opinion that Vinnie can play jazz. Again. It is not often that we get the chance to hear him play it. And while I agree that Chick is not known as a be-bop pianist, he too can play it when he desires. And in my opinion, that night at the Blue Note in December 1992, that was some awesome jazz being played.
Say what you will and I won't take it as an insult. I only thank you for listening.
*yawn*
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Exactly! LOL! [img]graemlins/sleepy.gif[/img]Quote:
Originally posted by cjbdrm:
*yawn*
Those aren't rules, that's what a jazz drummer should be able to do. And again, I'm not frowning upon people who aren't jazz drummers. I'm pointing out what the art form of jazz is.
Zach and Krantz are not jazz, Weckl's album is not jazz. Those instrumental rock fusion albums. Krantz to me is like an Improviational Jeff Beck Band. There's non changes, just a small structure that gets broken on Waynes command on stage. that's not jazz.
There are different types of jazz, and they all come out of what I listed above. Jazz is not simply improvisatonal music within a form. If that were the case, The Greatful Dead would be jazz, or The Dave Matthews Live when they just jam over their somg structure would be jazz. It isn't.
Cbdjks....U can yawn my man, but check it, learning something about the only true american art form wouldn't hurt my man.
I believe that there are standards for all types of music. I wouldn't call myself a rock drummer if I didn't check out the roots and great musicians of the music.
Is that a personal attack? Don't go there bro'...
No more than a yawn. I don't see how that's a comment at all. Maybe you were too busy yawning during that history of jazz class you never took.
No more personal that a yawn. :-)
Those albums ARE jazz! But they're not BE-BOP, TRADITIONAL, or SWING jazz!
Where is this incessant desire to tear down Vinnie & Weckl, & build up say a guy like Hass, coming from? ALL are phenomenal players at what they do! I realize the point was more about "what is considered be-bop/trad/swing or BB jazz...but really, WHAT is the poiint here, & WHAT exactly is the motive? Chip on the shoulder, perhaps? Sounds like drole semantics & rhetoric to me. If one is trying to "enlighten" a crowd, it's a peculiar way of handling...CJ said it best with his *YAWN*! "HA!" [img]wink.gif[/img]
I reiterate what has been said.
I think the problem Stv & many of us have is more a poster's TONE when he types..."HA!"...["you guys don't know what you're talking about! HA!"] [img]wink.gif[/img]
Be-bop is a definite, specific way of jazz-playing approach AWA the specific point in time [era] that it was being played. True.
But also at the same time, jazz is & should be considered an ever-evolving art form, as witnessed by the Tonys, Vinnies, Weckls, & whatnot. Yes, they do not play it the same way as X years ago or X player back when. But to say VC or Weck can't handle the idion is just pure nonsense. These guys come from a contempo fusion place [naturally!] sure, but each has been schooled in the jazz & BB art form. They've just taken what they've learned & heard to THE NEXT LEVEL.
Now if you say they don't play or swing like Hamilton, Baron, Tain, Elvin, Philly, Art, Deej...then you're correct. But to say VC doesn't understand jazz song form or LH comping in the jazz idiom & the like is like saying "I'm deaf" or "I really don't know what I'm talking about." You're just MISSING THE WHOLE POINT.
If you say he isn't playing bop, that's pretty much true. If you say he can't play jazz, you're off your rocker. If you say he's not playing like the forefathers, you're right. If you say he's not playing it as it should be played, then Miles would've probably completely dissed your arse & tossed ya to the curb.
VC plays it his way, & I hear enough of the so-called "what is expected to be jazz" idiom to make it good. Nuff for me.
No one said, "Vinnie's God" or can "do it all, ethnically correct" & whatnot. VC himself would prob tell you the same.
I think SDK raised a true-within-itself point about the be-bop language thing. However, to me, that is never the "point."
I think what tends to set others on edge is, as Stv said, the way it's presented & the way it comes off. [SDK, is your middle name, "HA?"?]
It seems like sometimes certain folks only log in to promote their own personal fave player at the expense of another's or to instigate some sort of argument sometimes, because in their own mind they feel slighted because others speak "too much" of certain players?
Listen up...again, this site is originally dedicated to VINNIE & WECKL. Stv SAYS SO ON HIS HOD SITE. So if that's not to someone's liking, just stay out. Ersk & Gary H don't seem to have too much problem w that either; besides they are unbelievable musicians in their own right as well, & don't need to be worried or bothered about it.
Often the way someone posts lets you in on a little bit of their internal struggles [myself included].
Vinnie is not a bebop player & NEVER CLAIMED TO BE [i know SDK is aware of that]. But the point is, to paraphrase a unique thought from Miles Davis, why in the he** would you want every stinking drummer who plays jazz to play it EXACTLY like it was done years ago or like every other player who does it? I mean, who's making the rules here?! THAT's not what "jazz" OR "music" period is or was ever supposed to be all about! I DO understand you have to know & understand "the roots," but...I DONT listen to VC for "his bebop" inflection" or any influence [they are many OTHER players for that]...i listen to him because he is just plain simply ONE BAD A** MO FRO on the instrument. & it's just that simple.
He brings something unique, fresh, & different in his approach, & that's what I'm interested in hearing. Not regurgetated Max or Art!
It sounds as if some guys allow themselves to get irked on what they think is everyone thinking that a guy like Vinnie can do it all authentically & that he is somehow superhuman, which is virtually impossible for anyone [even *gulp* Hass! - that sample I heard on his site of "jazz" is NOT JAZZ either! But I'm not going to say he doesn't understand where it's coming from either!]. I don't hear Hass playing strict authentic old-school bop either!
But I tell you this, what VC DOES do is just downright unbelievable [Same with say, Weckl, Dennis, & Virgil]. The Waldman stuff - I'm not gonna sit there & say out loud, "yeah, but that ain't bebop." That's ridiculaous, & misses the whole point. But what he does, unbridled, VERY FEW can touch him. & the other greats are aware of this fact AW.
I don't speak so highly of VC as if he's some sort of superhuman or can do it all ethnuically & "stylistically correct;" I do so because he's a great fusion & backbeat player, & of what he does do, he is a master of his domain, & w the exceptn of the Tony in him, there's no one who sounds like him, which to me is one of the most important aspect of his playing.
Let's just say - you jazz snobs need to get a clue, as you miss the point because you can't climb outside the f'n box! & also - you who don't understand the termonology "jazz" [on BOTH sides - the snobs AWA the un-learned or "un-schooled"] - get one also! [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img]
OK, keep it clean, & come out of yer corners SWINGIN'...
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 04, 2005 03:46 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]</font>
I gained a new word thanks to this thread.... JAZZ NAZIS!!! [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]
The "pureists" are in Da house!! (where's fuse when you need him?? [img]wink.gif[/img]
Well... now this has been hashed to total nonsense.
It almost sounds as if these guys are trying to say, (say the next lines like Stewart from MAD TV!!) "Nooooouuuu!! STOP!!! What you're listening to doesn't sound good!! It's not PURE JAZZ!! You need to go buy some Dark Crashes and learn how to make your ride replicate the 2&4 more succecntly (even though... as we all know, the FEEL is in the triplet) as opposed to your HH." "Don't tune your bass drum to make that thudddy sound, make it go BONGGGGG!!".
Like Vinne doesn't know all these things?? sheesh... [img]graemlins/whatever.gif[/img]
And to think Vince doesn't have some sick brush work is to not know Vince at all.
Vince is the all time Chameleon. If he wanted to sound like any of these cats he could. He is well more than capable of just "getting the job done", he sounds amazing on 99% of what he plays usually. Jazz included. I'd rather hear Vince's interpretations playing bop, big band, swing, etc than most other drummers (of course my own personal taste). But I guess that would be sacrilage to some "purests" out there. I mean.. were only talking about a guy that could play his and someone elses drum parts symoltaniously. But there are MANY drummers that I think swing hard and "communicate" just as tastifully as Vince does. I take from them all and they ALL deserve props for thier playing.
As far as traditional drum tuning is concerned, it drives me nuts. Listening/watching Buddy for many years....... I can't help but think of crawling into the TV screen, cutting a hole in his B.D. and throwing a pillow in it, and then throwing some tape on a few of his heads so I can hear some difference between his high tom and his bass drum!!
My suggestion is to check out the Japanese tour on DVD of the Chick Accoustic band and see if Vince can "communicate". Because I think there wasn't a 32th note that was left out by Vince while "talking" to Chick on their exchanges. I don't think they're are many "JAZZ" charts out there that would even come close to the "communication" that was going on there. I mean... these guys were talking Chinese, English, and some long lost African jive all at once!! [img]eek.gif[/img]
The Randy Waldman CD's are also great "traditional sounding" examples too.
I never said that. We're talking about what is jazz and what isn't from a historical and traditional standpoint. Period. Sure some great fusion drummers can left hand comp in the style. That's speaking english like a four year old. I'm talking about the language of jazz. And V.C doesn't use it. It's a fact. V.C never plays anything coming out of the jazz tradition. Is that bad? Of course not. It is what it is. But it's not jazz. A hybrid, a fusion, but not jazz.
I'm not saying he can't hang with the best jazzers, he's an amazing musician, he can do whatever he wants. I'm just being real about our music. And what the guy plays isn't jazz.